out of curiosity, how come no one- OTL- took "Justinian" (or whatever the Greek variant of it was) or "Theodora" (which is essentially a simple inversion of "Dorothea", reasonably common in German houses)? They seem to have stuck to the same boring "Alex" and "Konstantin" shuffle
List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage II
- Thread starter FalconHonour
- Start date
pls don't ban me
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i mean, Justinian has a mixed legacy. nobody would like to be referenced to the Nika revolts as soon as a protest is quelled by the police forces
Alexander the great and Constantine I and XI ? hell no they are "the myth, the legend!"
it's the same for why Ferdinand's descendants went for Boris and Simeon as names.
everyone in Bulgaria loves Boris I and Simeon I "Veliki".
( sorry for spamming Bulgaria references but it's the neighbor and closest example)
i'm still wondering why the hell do Serbians use that weird naming on rulers ( like Milos I, followed by Milan II and then Mihailo III. there is no Milan I or Mihailo II)
fair enough. It was just the first Byzantine Emperor who popped into my head. Surely there are others of similar quasi-mythical proportions? Basil the Bulgar-Slayer, for instance (will probably cause a PR headache with the Bulgarians, and probably cause problems when he becomes king as "Basileus Basilos"), but it's there, no?
Elimar’s mom was Swedish, and the daughter of a king who was deposed after pushing the divine right of kings to it’s brink. His father is a pretty typical German antidemocrat, who was also in a semi-vassal relationship to the Russian tsar, a policy his elder brother would continue. What Elimar’s personal views were I don’t know, but he certainly doesn’t come from a liberal family, and I think he’ll be seen as way to much of a pro-Russian choice for any great power to be comfortable with.
Surviving John the Posthumous allows the main line House of Capet to continue for at least another generation
- John, King of France and Navarre (b. 1316, d. 1371) m. Bonne of Luxembourg, Princess of Bohemia (b. 1315, d. 1369)
- Louis XI, King of France and Navarre (b. 1333, d. 1392) m. Isabella of England, Princess of England (b. 1332, d. 1382)
- Marie, Princess of France (b. 1335, d. 1382) m. Amadeus VI, Count of Savoy (b. 1334, d. 1383)
- Joan, Princess of France (b. 1336, d. 1371) m. Peter IV, King of Aragon (b. 1319, d. 1387)
- Charles, Count of Poitiers (b. 1338, 1394) m. Joanna of Bourbon (b. 1338, d. 1388)
- Clementia, Princess of France (b. 1343, d. 1408) m. John I, Duke of Lorraine (b. 1346, d. 1390)
Suggestion, Surviving house of trastamara with Juan, son of the catholic monarchs.
Anne of Bohemia with a different mother and favorable to Charles V
Anne of Navarre b. 1486 d. 1505 m. Juan, Prince of Asturias(a) Vladislaus II of Hungary(b)
1a. Anne of Bohemia b. 1502 m. Charles V
2a. Catherine of Bohemia b. 1505 m. John III of Portugal
@isabella
Anne of Navarre b. 1486 d. 1505 m. Juan, Prince of Asturias(a) Vladislaus II of Hungary(b)
1a. Anne of Bohemia b. 1502 m. Charles V
2a. Catherine of Bohemia b. 1505 m. John III of Portugal
@isabella
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Anne of Navarre was born in 1492 IOTL, she was way too young to marry Juan and in any case was not considered suitable for marriage
This Anne of Navarre is born in 1486 and a different person here.
Francis II, King of France m. Mary, Queen of Scots
1) Marie Elisabeth of France, Queen of Scotland, England, Ireland (1560-1620) m. George Gordon, 1st Marquess of Huntly (1562-1636)
1) Marie Elisabeth of France, Queen of Scotland, England, Ireland (1560-1620) m. George Gordon, 1st Marquess of Huntly (1562-1636)
Henry VII of England (d. 1509) married Elizabeth of York (d. 1518)
Arthur, Prince of Wales (b. 1486-1502) married Catherine of Aragon (b. 1485-.)
Edward VI of England (b. 1488-.) m Catherine of Aragon (b. 1485-.)
Elizabeth (b. 1504-.) m Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor (b. 1500-.) in 1520 with issues
Philip II of Spain (b. 1521-.) m Maria of Portugal * (b. 1518/9-.) with issues
Carlos II of Spain (b. 1536-.) m Eleanor de France **(b. 1536-.) with issues
Isabella (b. 1539-.1556) m Joao IV, King of Portugal (b. 1541-.) without issue
Fernando, Viceroy of Milan (b. 1540-.) m Juana de Cardona (1542–1608), countess of Cardona and Duchess of Segorbe with issues
Joanna (b. 1540-.) m Francesco, Duke of Milan (b. 1539-.) with issues
Maria (b. 1543-.) m Francesco de' Medici, Grand Duke of Toxana (b. 1541-.) with issues
John, Duke of Burgundy (b. 1523-.) m Anne of Lorraine (b. 1522-.) with issues
Isabella (b. 1540-.) m Henry IX of England (b. 1540-.) with issues
Charles III, Duke of Burgundy (b. 1542-.) m Margaret of Scotland (b. 1544-.) with issues
Catherine (b. 1545-.) m William, Duke of Bavaria (b. 1548-.) with issues
Catherine (b. 1525-.) m Alfonso VI, King of Portugal * (b. 1522-.) with issues
Joao IV, King of Portugal (b. 1541-.) m Isabella of Spain (b. 1539-1557), b) Isabella of England (b. 1543-.) with issues
Alfonso, Duke of Guarda (b. 1543-.) m Beatrice da Silva (b. 1550-.) with issues
Fernando Infante Cardinal (b. 1548-.)
Diego Infante Cardinal (b. 1552-.)
Louis (b. 1558-.) m Juana, Duchess of Avero (b. 1560-.) with issues
Isabella (b. 1527-.) m Maximilian II, Holy Roman Emperor and King of Bohemia and Hungary (b. 1527-.) with issues
Ferdinand II, Holy Roman Emperor and King of Bohemia and Hungary (b. 1545-.1593) m Maria Anna of Bavaria (b. 1551-.) in 1568 with issues
Anna (b. 1548-.) m Sigmund III, King of Poland (b. 1550-.) with issues
Ernest Cardinal (b. 1551-.)
Elizabeth (b. 1552-.) m Henry II, King of France (b. 1552-.) with issues
Matthias Cardinal (b. 1554-.)
Maximilian (b. 1557-.)
Albert (b. 1561-.)
Catherine(b. 1563-.) m Henry, Duke of Lorraine and Bar (b. 1561-.) with issues
Maria (b. 1564-.) m Philip II, Margrave of Baden-Baden (b. 1559-.) withissues
Eleanor (b. 1568-.) , nun
Maria (b. 1530-.) m Karl I Sigomund, King of Denmark, Sweden and Norway (b. 1531-.) with issues
John III, King of Denmark, Sweden and Norway (b. 1550-.) m Margaret of England (b. 1551-.) with issues
Elizabeth (b. 1554-.) m Arthur I, King of Scotland (b. 1550-.) with issues
Christina (. 1554-.) m Ferdinand Archduke of Tyrol (b. 1552-.) with issues
Dorothea (. 1562-.)
Mary (. 1566-.)
Joanna (. 1533-.)
Henry VIII of England (b. 1506-.) m Isabella of Portugal (b. 1503-.) with issues
Edward VII of England (b. 1522-.) m Margaret of France (b. 1523-.) with issues
John, Duke of Bedford (b. 1525-.) m Catherine Courtenay(b. 1527-.) with issues
Henry, Duke of Exeter (b. 1528-.) m Elizabeth Boleyn, Countess of Wiltshire (b. 1530-.) with issues
Catherine (b. 1530-.) m Henry 3rd , Duke of Somerset (b. 1530-.) with issues
Mary (b. 1535-.) m Francis II, King of France **(b. 1535-.) with issues
Edmund, Duke of Suffolock (b. 1539-.) m Mary Fitzalan, Countess Arnold (b. 1540-.) with issues
Edward, Duke of York (b. 1509-.) m Elizabeth Gray Viscountess Lisle (b. 1505-.) with issues
Edward, Duke of York (b. 1525-.) m Elizabeth Percy (b. 1528-. ) with issues
Catherine (b. 1528-.) m William Somerset, 3rd Earl of Worcester (b. 1526/27-.) with issues
Elizabeth (b. 1533-.) m Algernon Percy, Earl of Northumbland (b. 1531-.) with issues
Margaret (b. 1513-.) m James V, King of Scotland (b. 1512-.) with issues
James VI of Scotland (b. 1530-.) m Catherine de Valois *** (b. 1532-.) with issues
Arthur, Duke of Albany (b. 1533-.) m
John Earl of Mar (b. 1537-) m
Catherine (b. 1541-.) m Charles, Duke of Lorraine and Bar ****(b. 1537-.) with issues
Margaret (b. 1544-.) m Charles III, Duke of Burgundy (b. 1542-.) with issues
Edmund, Duke of Richmond (b. 1515-. 1517)
John, Duke of Richmond (b. 1519-.) m Catherine Willoughby (b. 1519-.) with issues
Edward, Duke of Richmond (b. 1535-.) m Catherine Gray (b. 1537-.) with issues
Catherine (b. 1538-.) m Henry Howard, Duke of Norfolk (b. 1536-.) with issues
Mary (b. 1541-.) m Henry Stafford, Duke of Buckingham (b. 1540-.) with issues
Henry, Earl of March (b. 1544-.) m Elizabeth Manners (b. 1553-.) with issues
Elizabeth (b. 1550-.) m Henry Pole, Earl of Salisbury (b. 1546-.) with issues
Margaret (b. 1489-.) m James IV, King of Scotland (b. 1473-.)
James V of Scotland (b. 1512-.) m Margaret of England (b. 1513-.) with issues
Alexander, Duke of Ross (b. 1514-.) m Anne of Albany, Countess of Auvergne and Boulogne (b. 1516-.) with issues
John, Duke of Ross (b. 1535-.) m Anne de Bourbon (b. 1540-.) with issues
Anne (b. 1539-.) m Francis II, Duke of Nevers (b. 1540-.) with issues
Margaret (b. 1516-.) m Wilhelm, Duke of Jülich-Cleves-Berg (b. 1516-.) with issues
Maria Isabella (b. 1533-.) m Ferdinand Archduke of Tyrol (b. 1529-.) with issues
Karl Friedrich, Duke of Jülich-Cleves-Berg(b. 1536-.) m Christina of Denmark (b. 1537-.) with issues
Elizabeth (b. 1518-.) m Henry, Duke of Orleans (b. 1519-.) with issues
Louis, Duke of Orléans (b. 1536-.) Françoise de Bourbon, Duchess Montpensier (b. 1539-.) with issues
Madeleine (b. 1538-.) m William IV, Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel (b. 1532-.) with issues
Mary (b. 1522-.) m Matthew Stewart, 4th Earl of Lennox (1516-.) with issues
John Earl of Mar (. 1525-.)
Henry, Duke of Somerset (b. 1491-.) m Marguerite de Angoulême (b. 1492-.)
Elizabeth (b. 1508-.) m Henry II of Navarre (b. 1502-.) with issues
Joan III, Queen of Navarre (b. 1530-.) m Philip, Duke of Berry،*** (b. 1530-.) with issues
John of Fianna (b. 1532. 1539)
Margaret (b. 1535-.) m François, Duke of Longueville (b. 1535-.) with issues
Anne (b. 1539-.), nun
Henry, Duke of Somerset (b. 1510-.) m Elizabeth Willoughby, Baroness and Plope de Broke (b. 1512-.) with
issues
Catherine (b. 1528-.) m Henry Neville, 5th Earl of Westmorland (b. 1525-.) with issues
Henry , 3rd Duke of Somerset (b. 1530-.) m . Catherine of England (b. 1530-.) with issues
Margaret (. 1532-.)
Elizabeth (. 1536-.)
Edward, Earl of Cambridge (b. 1514-.) m Anne Bourchier (b. 1517-.) with issues
Henry, Earl of Cambridge (b. 1533-.) m Elizabeth Stanley (b. 1533-.) with issues
Louise (b. 1537-.) Henry Stanley, 4th Earl of Derby (b. 1531-.) with issues
Margaret (b. 1516-.) m Henry Howard, Duke of Norfolk (b. 1516-.)
Catherine (b. 1518-.) m Henry Gray, Marquess of Droste (b. 1516-.) with issues
Louise (b. 1523-.) m Henry Stafford, Duke of Buckingham (b. 1520-.) with issues
Anne (b. 1529-.) m George Talbot, 6th Earl of Shrewsbury (b. 1528-.) with issues
Elizabeth (b. 1492-1495)
Mary (b. 1496-.) m Christian II, King of Denmark, Sweden and Norway (b. 1481/2-.)
John II, King of Denmark, Sweden and Norway (b. 1513-.) m Hedwig of Poland (b. 1513-.) with issues
Karl I Sigomund, King of Denmark, Sweden and Norway (b. 1531-.)m Maria of spain (b. 1530-.) with issues
Mary (. 1533-.)
Christina (b. 1537-.) m Karl Friedrich, Duke of Jülich-Cleves -Berg (b. 1536-.) with issues
Dorothea (. 1540-.)
Elizabeth (b. 1544-.) m Joachim Frederick, Elector of Brandenburg (b. 1546-.) with issues
Johann (b. 1547-.)
Dorothea (b. 1515-.) m Philip I, Duke of Pomerania (b. 1515-.) with issues
Christina (b. 1518-.1522)
Christian (b. 1521. 1529)
Elizabeth (b. 1528-.) m John Albert I, Duke of Mecklenburg (b. 1525-.) with issues
Edmund, Duke of Richmond . 1499)
*Children of John II, of Portugal and Isabella of Austria
Eleanor of Austria married Louis XII of France without issue and secondly to Sigmond I of Poland with issues.
Bona Sfoza married her cousin, Francesco
** children of Francis III, Duke of Brittany and Elizabeth of Poland (b. 1518-.), Daughter of Sigomund I of Poland and Eleanor of Austria
*** children of Francis I, King of France, and his second wife, Catherine of Austria
****Son of Anne of Cleves
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Oh yeah, I thought Edward was Arthur and Catherine's son... My bad
Henry IX of England should be Henry VIII of England. His grandfather was seventh Henry to rule England.
The Messed Up Inheritance of House Tudor
POD: Anne doesn’t miscarry when Henry is thrown from his horse at the tourney. This delays any legal proceedings but everyone knows that Henry is done with Anne, and many believe she’ll go the way of Catherine as soon as she miscarries or gives birth to a daughter. (Since the idea of executing an anointed queen wasn’t crossing anyone’s mind). Instead she carries to term and dies giving birth to another daughter.
But the extra few months do mean that Jane agrees to sleep with Henry. Which means Henry looses interest and is now single by both the laws of England and the Catholic Church. Without the drama of Henry beheading his second wife, Christina of Denmark was talked round, and the two married early in 1537. Christina quickly had two boys, and everyone was very happy. But, an unscheduled sweating sickness sweeps through the English countryside taking both Queen Christina and the little Duke of York.
With the Protestant faction rising at court, Henry is talked into marrying Princess Jeanne of Navarre, future Queen of Navarre. The two are only married for a year when while jousting (without the guilt and trauma and drama of his OTL wives, Henry’s health stays pretty good) Henry is thrown from his horse and killed. Jeanne gives birth to a posthumous daughter and only a year or so after that has to go back to Navarre to remarry.
Now, young King Henry IX ascends the throne without any issue. But the question on more than a few minds is, until young Henry sires a child, who is his heir? And when young King Henry’s health takes a turn for the worse in 1553 the question becomes very, very important.
King Henry’s betrothal is scrapped, and an older bride is found as everyone prays that the King is able to sire a child before he passes on. But as that happens other factions start moving.
Henry Brandon, the King’s cousin, strengthens his claim by asking for and receiving the hand of Princess Elizabeth. (Though just how much that helps depends on who you talk to. Yes she’s technically legitimate, but the Catholics don’t agree, and even the Protestants acknowledge that if her mother had survived, Anne probably would have been set aside)
Various sundry Lord petition for the hands of Princess Margaret or Princess Joan, but they are all turned aside. And many see young King Henry allowing his sister and cousin to wed as acknowledgement of him viewing them as his temporary heirs.
But, nothing legal is decided and in 1555 the childless young king finally succumbs to his illness.
Tudor Tree
King Henry VIII Tudor, King of England, born 1491, died 1545, married a) Catherine of Aragon, born 1485, died 1536, with issue; b) Anne Boleyn, Marchioness of Pembroke, born 1507, died 1536, with issue; c) Christina of Denmark, born 1521, died 1543; d) Jeanne d’Albret, Queen of Navarre, born 1528, died 1572; relations with Bessie Blount, born 1500, died 1540, with issue
The Potential Heirs
The Lady Mary, age 39, sister of the King
Henry Brandon, Duke of Suffolk, age 32 and his wife Princess Elizabeth, age 22, cousin and sister of the King respectively
Princess Joan, the sister of the King, age 10
Henry FitzRoy, Duke of Richmond and Somerset, age 15, nephew of the King
Edward FitzRoy, Earl of Essex, age 18, brother of the King
Who do you think is coming out on top?
POD: Anne doesn’t miscarry when Henry is thrown from his horse at the tourney. This delays any legal proceedings but everyone knows that Henry is done with Anne, and many believe she’ll go the way of Catherine as soon as she miscarries or gives birth to a daughter. (Since the idea of executing an anointed queen wasn’t crossing anyone’s mind). Instead she carries to term and dies giving birth to another daughter.
But the extra few months do mean that Jane agrees to sleep with Henry. Which means Henry looses interest and is now single by both the laws of England and the Catholic Church. Without the drama of Henry beheading his second wife, Christina of Denmark was talked round, and the two married early in 1537. Christina quickly had two boys, and everyone was very happy. But, an unscheduled sweating sickness sweeps through the English countryside taking both Queen Christina and the little Duke of York.
With the Protestant faction rising at court, Henry is talked into marrying Princess Jeanne of Navarre, future Queen of Navarre. The two are only married for a year when while jousting (without the guilt and trauma and drama of his OTL wives, Henry’s health stays pretty good) Henry is thrown from his horse and killed. Jeanne gives birth to a posthumous daughter and only a year or so after that has to go back to Navarre to remarry.
Now, young King Henry IX ascends the throne without any issue. But the question on more than a few minds is, until young Henry sires a child, who is his heir? And when young King Henry’s health takes a turn for the worse in 1553 the question becomes very, very important.
King Henry’s betrothal is scrapped, and an older bride is found as everyone prays that the King is able to sire a child before he passes on. But as that happens other factions start moving.
Henry Brandon, the King’s cousin, strengthens his claim by asking for and receiving the hand of Princess Elizabeth. (Though just how much that helps depends on who you talk to. Yes she’s technically legitimate, but the Catholics don’t agree, and even the Protestants acknowledge that if her mother had survived, Anne probably would have been set aside)
Various sundry Lord petition for the hands of Princess Margaret or Princess Joan, but they are all turned aside. And many see young King Henry allowing his sister and cousin to wed as acknowledgement of him viewing them as his temporary heirs.
But, nothing legal is decided and in 1555 the childless young king finally succumbs to his illness.
Tudor Tree
King Henry VIII Tudor, King of England, born 1491, died 1545, married a) Catherine of Aragon, born 1485, died 1536, with issue; b) Anne Boleyn, Marchioness of Pembroke, born 1507, died 1536, with issue; c) Christina of Denmark, born 1521, died 1543; d) Jeanne d’Albret, Queen of Navarre, born 1528, died 1572; relations with Bessie Blount, born 1500, died 1540, with issue
With Infanta Catharine (legitimate in the Catholic Tradition, illegitimate in the Anglican Tradition)
Lady Mary Tudor, born 1516
With Lady Anne (illegitimate in the Catholic Tradition, legitimate in the Anglican Tradition)
Princess Elizabeth Tudor, Marchioness of Pembroke, born 1533, died 1602, married Henry Brandon, Duke of Suffolk, born 1523
Henry Brandon, Earl of Lincoln, born 1554
William Brandon, born 1556
Princess Margaret Tudor, born 1536
With Princess Christina (legitimate)
King Henry IX Tudor, King of England, born 1538, died 1555, marries Princess Madelyn Stewart of Scotland, born 1537, with no issue
Prince Edward Tudor, Duke of York, born 1540, died 1543
With Queen Jeanne (legitimate)
Princess Joan Tudor, born 1545
With Mistress Blount (illegitimate)
Henry FitzRoy, Duke of Richmond and Somerset, born 1519, died 1546, married Lady Mary Howard, born 1519, died 1544
Henry FitzRoy, Duke of Richmond and Somerset, born 1540, marries Princess Madelyn Stewart of Scotland, born 1537
Christina FitzRoy, born 1548
With Mistress Seymour (Illegitimate)
Edward FitzRoy, Earl of Essex, born 1537
The Potential Heirs
The Lady Mary, age 39, sister of the King
Though almost past the age of childbearing, Lady Mary boasts the most influential foreign relations. What’s more she is a clever forceful woman who many love. Many more remember when she was her father’s heir.
Henry Brandon, Duke of Suffolk, age 32 and his wife Princess Elizabeth, age 22, cousin and sister of the King respectively
Charming and attractive and fecund, Henry and Elizabeth boast two sons with other babe on the way. Between their two titles they control a significant amount of land. Princess Elizabeth has martialed the Boleyn clan and who have secured Ireland.
Princess Joan, the sister of the King, age 10
Princess Joan is not quite a candidate in her own right. It’s more the various lords who have lost and gained custody of her, who push her claim with the idea to wed her.
Henry FitzRoy, Duke of Richmond and Somerset, age 15, nephew of the King
The image of his grandfather at that age, Henry FitzRoy is one of the largest landowners in England. And the charming young man has wooed and wed the widowed Queen securing Scotland’s assistance, as Princess Madelyn is her father's favorite child.
Edward FitzRoy, Earl of Essex, age 18, brother of the King
Lord Edward was very close with his brother the King, and had served on the Privy Council of Henry IX. He’s quick to offer his hand to domestic and foreign potential allies alike.
Who do you think is coming out on top?
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