Ramontxo
Donor
Thanks for your answer and work. It is still a good (or very good) wine, but once upon a time it was the kind of wine that you asked for when you wanted to really impress
Malaya What If
- Thread starter Fatboy Coxy
- Start date
Yep- I was racking my brain thinking of deception opportunities. Everything I’ve read points to either inertia, inefficiency, or misreads on the part of the allied forces on the peninsula rather than swallowing a deception.
Since there are two ways to fix- engagement or deception, I was wondering if somebody on the Japanese side may have started to look at the correlation of forces and started to think about how to fix and bypass a portion of what they’re beginning to see arrayed against them.
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Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi Amir, I guess much of the inertia and misreads stems from the actions of Churchill and Roosevelt, who completely failed to read the mindset of the Japanese. Provided the Japanese didn't assemble troops at the border, what might be attacked was always open to speculation, especially given the fact that it would be utter madness to go to war with the Americans, given their economical might.
However all this talk on the subject of deception leads us nicely into my next story, so as Mark Cavendish might say, thank you for the lead in, I'll take it from here, with ...
MWI 41101915 Hong Kong Parades
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
1941, Sunday 19 October;
They came down Prince Edward Road, having massed at Kai Tak Airfield, before turning left onto Nathan Road, destination Kings Park. The newly formed 2nd Battalion, Hong Kong Chinese Regiment had been given the honour of parading through the streets of Kowloon, her colours flowing free in the breeze, having just received them a couple of hours ago at the Sham Shui Po barracks. Preceding the battalion was the Royal Scots regimental band, bagpipes blaring, drums thumping, kilts swaying. If anyone hadn’t known there was an army parade on before, they did now.
The Colours, along with a big Union Jack flag, led the battalion, commanding officer, sword in hand, best dress uniform, following, and then the four companies, E, F, G and H, rifles sloped, officers with drawn swords (many borrowed from the Royal Scots). Following was a second battalion, a composite affair, again four companies, the leading company was B company 1st Hong Kong Chinese Regiment, although the colours flying in front had a very clear 4th Battalion marking on them. Following the marching infantry company were a large number of Bren gun carriers, then light trucks and finally armoured cars, all with Chinese soldiers aboard, although looking closely you might have noticed a few European drivers. The whole thing done with as much pomp and ceremony as the Colony could manage.
Marching with the 2nd battalion were five subalterns of the Royal Scots, who had arrived with a small draft of 30 odd men from the UK eight days ago, carried for most of the way in the trooper Stirling Castle, the last leg from Singapore to Hong Kong on the City of Lyons, to make some attempt at redressing the shortage of numbers in the Royal Scots. But for now, as yet unknown in the colony, they’d been asked to wear khaki trousers as opposed to their kilts, they helped fill out the officer corps in the Chinese battalion. Among them was 2nd Lt Douglas Baird, who had left Chile, where his family had settled, and sailed back to the UK to join up serve his country.
This was a deception plan of Maltby’s, the 2nd Battalion was real enough, although some in the battalion were barely trained, having just finished their courses. Indeed, to help the inexperienced, the best drilled, marched on the outside, in part to help maintain the cadence and rhythm, in part to hide the mistakes. But the following mechanized battalion was a complete sham, with soldiers borrowed from the 1st Battalion to provide marching companies of infantry, and new trainees sitting quite rigid in the vehicles. And those vehicles had the insignia of the Royal Scots, RAOC, RASC and other formations, painted over or obscured by flags and ground sheets, in a way to look that they belonged there.
Maltby was very worried about the strength of his garrison, with the Middlesex machine gun battalion, and the two Indian infantry battalions gone, along with most of the mobile artillery, a significant part of his forces had left. Two newly raised Chinese battalions didn’t adequately replace them. He didn’t doubt the Chinese would die well; their hatred of the Japanese would fuel the fight in them. Recruits were very enthusiastic, recruitment places were eagerly filled, he was able to be choosy, with a thorough medical inspection before they joined. But if he was going to mount a good defence of Hong Kong, he needed more, and an inflated garrison would help make the Japanese a little bit more cautious in any invasion.
For the onlooking Chinese population, the spectacle was inspiring, a show of force, part of the garrison of Hong Kong parading, impressive, formidable, with many families looking out for one of their loved ones in the ranks. The Royal Scots band were down the bottom of the hill, turning into Nathan Road, the policemen controlling the crowds along the route, followed the end of the parade, now escorting the crowd as it too followed, flags waving, people cheering. Down on Kings Park, a temporary stand had been built, for the Governor Sir Mark Young, along with Lord Gort, Maj Gen Maltby and all the senior dignitaries of the city, both European and Chinese.
Here the Governor would give a big speech emphasising unity and strength of purpose, while the crowd lapped it up, and the press snapped it up. The American Life magazine would run a centre page pull-out, with loads of photos, which would include an article on the evening dinner, which pretty much everyone who was someone attended, in their finest tails and long dresses. There were a number of interested eyes on it all, who maybe could have been forgiven in thinking the British had pretty much abandoned the defence of Hong Kong, but those ideas were now being rethought, that maybe that wasn’t the case. And the sun shone all day, as if on order, before finally settling down over the horizon with a beautiful finish.
They came down Prince Edward Road, having massed at Kai Tak Airfield, before turning left onto Nathan Road, destination Kings Park. The newly formed 2nd Battalion, Hong Kong Chinese Regiment had been given the honour of parading through the streets of Kowloon, her colours flowing free in the breeze, having just received them a couple of hours ago at the Sham Shui Po barracks. Preceding the battalion was the Royal Scots regimental band, bagpipes blaring, drums thumping, kilts swaying. If anyone hadn’t known there was an army parade on before, they did now.
The Colours, along with a big Union Jack flag, led the battalion, commanding officer, sword in hand, best dress uniform, following, and then the four companies, E, F, G and H, rifles sloped, officers with drawn swords (many borrowed from the Royal Scots). Following was a second battalion, a composite affair, again four companies, the leading company was B company 1st Hong Kong Chinese Regiment, although the colours flying in front had a very clear 4th Battalion marking on them. Following the marching infantry company were a large number of Bren gun carriers, then light trucks and finally armoured cars, all with Chinese soldiers aboard, although looking closely you might have noticed a few European drivers. The whole thing done with as much pomp and ceremony as the Colony could manage.
Marching with the 2nd battalion were five subalterns of the Royal Scots, who had arrived with a small draft of 30 odd men from the UK eight days ago, carried for most of the way in the trooper Stirling Castle, the last leg from Singapore to Hong Kong on the City of Lyons, to make some attempt at redressing the shortage of numbers in the Royal Scots. But for now, as yet unknown in the colony, they’d been asked to wear khaki trousers as opposed to their kilts, they helped fill out the officer corps in the Chinese battalion. Among them was 2nd Lt Douglas Baird, who had left Chile, where his family had settled, and sailed back to the UK to join up serve his country.
This was a deception plan of Maltby’s, the 2nd Battalion was real enough, although some in the battalion were barely trained, having just finished their courses. Indeed, to help the inexperienced, the best drilled, marched on the outside, in part to help maintain the cadence and rhythm, in part to hide the mistakes. But the following mechanized battalion was a complete sham, with soldiers borrowed from the 1st Battalion to provide marching companies of infantry, and new trainees sitting quite rigid in the vehicles. And those vehicles had the insignia of the Royal Scots, RAOC, RASC and other formations, painted over or obscured by flags and ground sheets, in a way to look that they belonged there.
Maltby was very worried about the strength of his garrison, with the Middlesex machine gun battalion, and the two Indian infantry battalions gone, along with most of the mobile artillery, a significant part of his forces had left. Two newly raised Chinese battalions didn’t adequately replace them. He didn’t doubt the Chinese would die well; their hatred of the Japanese would fuel the fight in them. Recruits were very enthusiastic, recruitment places were eagerly filled, he was able to be choosy, with a thorough medical inspection before they joined. But if he was going to mount a good defence of Hong Kong, he needed more, and an inflated garrison would help make the Japanese a little bit more cautious in any invasion.
For the onlooking Chinese population, the spectacle was inspiring, a show of force, part of the garrison of Hong Kong parading, impressive, formidable, with many families looking out for one of their loved ones in the ranks. The Royal Scots band were down the bottom of the hill, turning into Nathan Road, the policemen controlling the crowds along the route, followed the end of the parade, now escorting the crowd as it too followed, flags waving, people cheering. Down on Kings Park, a temporary stand had been built, for the Governor Sir Mark Young, along with Lord Gort, Maj Gen Maltby and all the senior dignitaries of the city, both European and Chinese.
Here the Governor would give a big speech emphasising unity and strength of purpose, while the crowd lapped it up, and the press snapped it up. The American Life magazine would run a centre page pull-out, with loads of photos, which would include an article on the evening dinner, which pretty much everyone who was someone attended, in their finest tails and long dresses. There were a number of interested eyes on it all, who maybe could have been forgiven in thinking the British had pretty much abandoned the defence of Hong Kong, but those ideas were now being rethought, that maybe that wasn’t the case. And the sun shone all day, as if on order, before finally settling down over the horizon with a beautiful finish.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
Japanese relations with the wider world, especially the United States.
Historically the major threat to the Japanese came from the Asian mainland, with the far more populous and prosperous Chinese being the major worry. Japan was in comparison to China relatively poor, and lacked access to resources and useable land that the Chinese had, plus even more than China, Japan was subjected to frequent natural disasters. Japan which had for a number of reasons decided to try to ignore the world and live in glorious isolation, strangely benefited from the European intervention into China. Especially the British, who during the Opium War, effectively destroyed any Chinese ability to project power outside of their own borders, and thus ensured to a large extent the integrity of Japan. However the new kid on the block, who like most teenagers wasn’t going to take advice from any old man, especially not Daddy whose house he had left, in a huff after a violent row about taking orders and paying housekeeping. Decided that this was his turf, and the inferior locals were in future going to dance to his tune. The fact that the Japanese, just like the indigenous peoples in his own country, just wanted to be left alone, wasn’t going to be allowed, they were going to have to be civilised, whether they liked it or not. In addition those Japanese who decided that the grass was greener on the other side of the Pacific, would be subjected to increasingly discrimination in the coming years. When having forced the Japanese to open up, and the Japanese had by enormous effort dragged themselves up, the new kid basically said that there was no place in the club for them. The Japanese who had formed a relationship with Daddy, much to their mutual benefit, Daddy finding itself temporarily financially strapped, was forced to renounce their agreement, without any consideration of Japanese feelings. And the already hash restrictions on the Japanese in the kids home had became even more difficult in the years after the start of the Great Depression.
The resentment felt by the Japanese at what they saw as hypocrisy by the Western Powers especially America after the end of WWI, in which they had fought alongside the Allies. Which saw them forced to accept a lower position in the world than both the European Allies who like them had fought in the war from the beginning, and the Americans who to use their own sporting metaphor, had only played in the fourth and final quarter. And while they had faced significant racism in America, and interference in what they regarded as their legitimate sphere of influence China. They had since the mid nineteen thirties been subjected to increased pressure especially from America financially, with America using its financial power to force the various European colonial powers to join in, in restricting Japanese access to resources and finance. All this combined with the fragile political situation inside Japan, caused by the combination of a very flawed political system, the effects of the Great Depression and starting with the Great Kanto earthquake in 1923 a number of serious earthquakes up to the outbreak of the war. Meant that by the late nineteen thirties, they decided that despite the risk, they would extend their on off conflict in China, in an attempt to conquer the entire nation and have access to all of its resources. However much the same as with Germany and Italy, Japan didn’t have the military capability to achieve this aim, without significant cooperation from the Major Powers, especially America and Britain. All they achieved was to seriously annoy the Americans, especially the American Democratic establishment, and to worry the British. After the ending of the Anglo Japanese treaty, on the insistence of the Americans, Britain had become concerned about the security of their Far East colonies and the British Dominions of Australia and New Zealand. Hong Kong despite what others saw was always regarded as indefensible, given its size and situation. And now as a result of principally American pressure, the Japanese have a Prime Minister who is happy to go to war, and believes that his forces can inflict such a devastating defeat on the Americans, so that they will be prepared to negotiate a peace settlement in Japans favour. Note he has already discounted the British, as he believes that they are both a failing Empire and too tired up in the conflict in Europe, to be any sort of opposition.
RR.
Historically the major threat to the Japanese came from the Asian mainland, with the far more populous and prosperous Chinese being the major worry. Japan was in comparison to China relatively poor, and lacked access to resources and useable land that the Chinese had, plus even more than China, Japan was subjected to frequent natural disasters. Japan which had for a number of reasons decided to try to ignore the world and live in glorious isolation, strangely benefited from the European intervention into China. Especially the British, who during the Opium War, effectively destroyed any Chinese ability to project power outside of their own borders, and thus ensured to a large extent the integrity of Japan. However the new kid on the block, who like most teenagers wasn’t going to take advice from any old man, especially not Daddy whose house he had left, in a huff after a violent row about taking orders and paying housekeeping. Decided that this was his turf, and the inferior locals were in future going to dance to his tune. The fact that the Japanese, just like the indigenous peoples in his own country, just wanted to be left alone, wasn’t going to be allowed, they were going to have to be civilised, whether they liked it or not. In addition those Japanese who decided that the grass was greener on the other side of the Pacific, would be subjected to increasingly discrimination in the coming years. When having forced the Japanese to open up, and the Japanese had by enormous effort dragged themselves up, the new kid basically said that there was no place in the club for them. The Japanese who had formed a relationship with Daddy, much to their mutual benefit, Daddy finding itself temporarily financially strapped, was forced to renounce their agreement, without any consideration of Japanese feelings. And the already hash restrictions on the Japanese in the kids home had became even more difficult in the years after the start of the Great Depression.
The resentment felt by the Japanese at what they saw as hypocrisy by the Western Powers especially America after the end of WWI, in which they had fought alongside the Allies. Which saw them forced to accept a lower position in the world than both the European Allies who like them had fought in the war from the beginning, and the Americans who to use their own sporting metaphor, had only played in the fourth and final quarter. And while they had faced significant racism in America, and interference in what they regarded as their legitimate sphere of influence China. They had since the mid nineteen thirties been subjected to increased pressure especially from America financially, with America using its financial power to force the various European colonial powers to join in, in restricting Japanese access to resources and finance. All this combined with the fragile political situation inside Japan, caused by the combination of a very flawed political system, the effects of the Great Depression and starting with the Great Kanto earthquake in 1923 a number of serious earthquakes up to the outbreak of the war. Meant that by the late nineteen thirties, they decided that despite the risk, they would extend their on off conflict in China, in an attempt to conquer the entire nation and have access to all of its resources. However much the same as with Germany and Italy, Japan didn’t have the military capability to achieve this aim, without significant cooperation from the Major Powers, especially America and Britain. All they achieved was to seriously annoy the Americans, especially the American Democratic establishment, and to worry the British. After the ending of the Anglo Japanese treaty, on the insistence of the Americans, Britain had become concerned about the security of their Far East colonies and the British Dominions of Australia and New Zealand. Hong Kong despite what others saw was always regarded as indefensible, given its size and situation. And now as a result of principally American pressure, the Japanese have a Prime Minister who is happy to go to war, and believes that his forces can inflict such a devastating defeat on the Americans, so that they will be prepared to negotiate a peace settlement in Japans favour. Note he has already discounted the British, as he believes that they are both a failing Empire and too tired up in the conflict in Europe, to be any sort of opposition.
RR.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
Defending Hong Kong ITTL.
Going back to the start of this T/L, when Winston on being informed of the increasing threat to Britain’s Far East territories. And he as a matter of prestige had called for a vigorous defence of Hong Kong, only to be finally persuaded that this wasn’t possible. And that there was no way that Hong Kong could be defended, and it was best to plan for its capture by the Japanese. And thus while some simple measures have been taken to make the conquest of HK, more difficult and costly for the Japanese. Such as increasing the size of the Local Defence Forces, ensuring that the fixed defences are suitably camouflaged, etc. The basic premise has to concentrate resources on the defence of Malaya and Singapore, even transferring resources from HK to Malaya, where possible. I would expect that in addition, a number of other measures have been taken, mostly covert and not obvious to those who are not in the know. Such as the removal from HK of the most vulnerable people and resources possible. When the Japanese eventually conquer the colony, after a stiff resistance, they should find the vaults and strong rooms of HK, empty of all valuables and equally the various warehouses and godowns, only containing essential supplies of the colony. In much the same way, even though our author hasn’t written about it, as he has mostly concentrated on the events in Malaya and Singapore. I would expect that 6, has built a number of networks to provide information and intelligence after the fall. These networks will use a number of different methods to communicate their information to the British, overland via established criminal networks both the various Chinese Triads and local smugglers, by sea using the various boat people, who have for centuries existed outside of the established order. And by the provision of a small number of short wave wireless sets, to their principal agents. Given the intensity of the buildings in HK, especially in Kowloon, or by placing the wireless on a small boat in the harbour. The Japanese security forces, will have an all but impossible task in ether tracking them down or stopping them from operating. I would expect that with the minimum of preparation the British security services, should be able to receive a continuous source of intelligence from inside the colony, until its eventual liberation. Hong Kong should ITTL, cost the Japanese substantial more to conquer, and be a consistent source of information and intelligence for the British.
RR.
Going back to the start of this T/L, when Winston on being informed of the increasing threat to Britain’s Far East territories. And he as a matter of prestige had called for a vigorous defence of Hong Kong, only to be finally persuaded that this wasn’t possible. And that there was no way that Hong Kong could be defended, and it was best to plan for its capture by the Japanese. And thus while some simple measures have been taken to make the conquest of HK, more difficult and costly for the Japanese. Such as increasing the size of the Local Defence Forces, ensuring that the fixed defences are suitably camouflaged, etc. The basic premise has to concentrate resources on the defence of Malaya and Singapore, even transferring resources from HK to Malaya, where possible. I would expect that in addition, a number of other measures have been taken, mostly covert and not obvious to those who are not in the know. Such as the removal from HK of the most vulnerable people and resources possible. When the Japanese eventually conquer the colony, after a stiff resistance, they should find the vaults and strong rooms of HK, empty of all valuables and equally the various warehouses and godowns, only containing essential supplies of the colony. In much the same way, even though our author hasn’t written about it, as he has mostly concentrated on the events in Malaya and Singapore. I would expect that 6, has built a number of networks to provide information and intelligence after the fall. These networks will use a number of different methods to communicate their information to the British, overland via established criminal networks both the various Chinese Triads and local smugglers, by sea using the various boat people, who have for centuries existed outside of the established order. And by the provision of a small number of short wave wireless sets, to their principal agents. Given the intensity of the buildings in HK, especially in Kowloon, or by placing the wireless on a small boat in the harbour. The Japanese security forces, will have an all but impossible task in ether tracking them down or stopping them from operating. I would expect that with the minimum of preparation the British security services, should be able to receive a continuous source of intelligence from inside the colony, until its eventual liberation. Hong Kong should ITTL, cost the Japanese substantial more to conquer, and be a consistent source of information and intelligence for the British.
RR.
And IIRC was the basis for a large US exercise in the 30ies; not just a paper plan.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
It should be noted that there were two different plans, the Army one that involved an invasion of Canada, and I assume was the basis of the exercise. And the infrequent Naval war games, similar to those for a conflict with Japan called Plan Orange, those for a conflict against the British Empire Plan Red . There were within Plan Red, sub plans in regards to the other members of the British Empire, called Plan Crimson, Scarlet, Claret, etc. For a number of reasons Americans especially the establishment have a serious fear of the British, and often believed that Britain had a supper secret plan, to reimpose the British rule over the United States of America.
RR.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
Shush don’t say it out loud, you know how upset the children get, when they think the adults are talking about them behind their back. A fellow resident of the best county in the land, and the supper secret HQ, of the Imperial Guardians.
RR.
My great grandfather led the Mills Bomb company of the 13th Battalion AIF in many of the critical battles of the late war, and shared the mess with Harry Murray VC,CMG, DSO and Bar, DCM and Croix de Guerre, arguably the most decorated Empire infantryman of the war. Great grandfather wrote the battalion history, had his diaries published, and is still often quoted in popular works. It's an utterly bizzare feeling to read his diaries (the originals are held in the state library's rare book section), where he writes lighly of going over the top at places like Villiers-Brettoneux (sp) and losing a cap to bullets, or of copping another wound. When I read things like that it's impossible to stop from cringing and thinking "duck, you mad fool, if you get killed I'll vanish from history". It's an eerie way to experience the realities and horrors of the war and the random nature of the effects it had on history, great and small.
'Scuse the hijack.
PS - on the downside, one recent popular history notes where in the lead up to a defensive action in the German advance of 1918, GGF came across a French civilian who had not left his house. The civilian explained that he wanted to protect his prized chickens and pig. "Don't worry, we'll see to them" said GGF......and they did, he notes, and they were delicious. So now one of Australia's most popular writers has outed GGF as a chicken-snaffling pig rustler. It's a hard life even for a war hero.
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Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi Jas Tysoe, thank you for sharing this, it's a wonder your GGF was able to do those things and survive, so many didn't. We visited the grave of Lewis McGee, another Australian VC holder, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_McGee_(soldier) and also the fields in which he won the medal and later died. The conditions in which they lived and fought in were simply horrific.
And as you point out our heroes are also people like ourselves, who had to turn to dubious means to survive the ordeal they had to live through. My friend Mark, who did the WW1 tour with me, introduced me to his great uncle, Frederick Claydon, a boy soldier for Canada, who's fighting prowess was matched by his resourcefulness, his ability to find enough alcohol to get his squad drunk from a liberated French beer keg not appreciated by the military authorities who busted him back to private from corporal. You can find some lovely recollections from Fred here https://exhibits.library.uvic.ca/spotlight/wwi/catalog/1-194
MWI 41102012 The Flying Squadron
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
1941, Monday 20 October;
“And, that gentlemen, is the report before us” Churchill paused, a copy of the current JIC briefing in his hand. What it said was grim, British and US intelligence had become aware that the Imperial Japanese Navy had been placed on a full war footing. Major pieces of evidence in this appraisal were the two vital coded radio messages intercepted in October, firstly a) Orders to recall the Combined Fleet two months early from its manoeuvres at sea and secondly b) orders to all Japanese consuls to concentrate on reporting all Western naval and air movements. In addition, they noted that the IJN had taken control of Japanese merchant shipping, had inducted a large number into their ranks as auxiliaries, and most shipping had been withdrawn.
He looked around the room, at his War Cabinet, and the Chiefs of Staff, all of whom waited for him to finish talking. “I’ll turn to our Chiefs of Staff to give an update on our military capabilities in the Far East, Admiral Pound, it you so please”
Pound cleared his throat, and flanked by Dill and Portal, with their deputies behind them, he began to speak. “Gentlemen, as you know our military commitments are stretched, we cannot be strong everywhere, nevertheless we have tried to provide a balanced force for the defence of the Far East. Hong Kong, as you know and agreed, has been reduced to a token garrison, sufficient to provide internal security, but incapable of holding the colony from a determined attack. And furthermore, if lost, we will lack the strength to retake the colony for the foreseeable future. We have also accepted that we lack the military strength to hold British Borneo, and here we intend to implement a policy of scorched earth, if attack, with pre-planned demolitions denying the enemy of all oil facilities.
However, it is our full intent to defend Malaya and Singapore. To these ends we have garrisoned the colony with over three divisions worth of troops, a significant and growing presence of a potent air force, along with co-operation agreements with the Dutch. Unfortunately, we still badly lack artillery of all kinds, tanks, and enough modern aircraft to equip these forces sufficient to provide a real sense of security. Some equipment is already on its way to make good these deficiencies, but more is needed. And the Fleet in Eastern waters is only strong enough to keep the sea lanes open from raiders and U-Boats. Accepting that we continue the process of steady provision of the necessary war material required, we would like to suggest two plans to you, to ensure security in the Far East.
Firstly, we would suggest a policy of pre-empting a Japanese attack, by a move into neutral Thailand, occupying the southern part up to the beginnings of the Kra Peninsula. This would allow us to deny the Japanese the southern ports of Songkhla and Pattani, and the associated airfields, forcing her to begin a campaign coming down the Kra Isthmus, supplied from all the way back in Bangkok, with the majority of her air force having to use the Indochina airfields. We estimate this could stall any Japanese advance sufficiently long enough for the Americans to come into the war and neutralise the Japanese threat.
Secondly, we propose a build-up of a Far Eastern Fleet based on Colombo. We estimate we could have a force of four R class battleships and two carriers assembled within six months, which working in conjunction with the US Fleet, look to regain control of the South China Seas.” Pound sat back, eyes on Churchill, who then spoke. “Any thoughts gentlemen? Anthony!”
“Err Hmm, if I may be so bold Prime Minister, I have a couple of points to make. Firstly, the suggestion that we violate Thai neutrality, is something that greatly concerns me. It doesn’t sit too well with us being defenders of the free world. And secondly, how will the domestic American public take to this, we’ve spoken enough in the past about the need to win them over.”
“Thank you, Foreign Secretary, any others, yes Max?”
“Gentlemen, what I know of the Americans, is they would warm to decisive action, if it’s in the interest of self-preservation and not seen as colonialism. Provided we got the news out first and presented our case, I think the world would accept our actions.”
“If it saves lives, I’m all for it” grunted Bevin, grudgingly siding with Lord Beaverbrook
“We would have to have a clear process of when the operation could be launched, when authority can be ceded over to the generals, it would be a grave disaster if we were to act on a false alarm. What if we got it wrong and the Japanese didn’t attack, were merely sabre rattling in Indo-China, American help could be gone, lend lease ceased!” Clem Attlee was fiddling with his pipe, ready for a break in the session, so he could have another smoke.
“If I may interject, we would need to act 48 hours before a Japanese landing, our forces would need the time to travel and then fortify themselves before contact with the enemy. We wouldn’t have enough time to consult with yourselves before taking a decision. But I’m confident we could interpret their intentions correctly, and Lord Gort is not a man to act in haste.”
Yes, yes, quite right, General Dill, but as both the Foreign Secretary and the Lord Privy Seal have pointed out, such a venture endangers the close relationship we are forming with America, and I do not intend to put that at risk. I believe it would be it prudent to develop plans for the option of Operation Matador, and it will be as stated, with clear guidelines as to how it may be invoked. Although I very much doubt that such a venture will be called for”. Are we all in agreement, yes?”. Churchill grunted as if marking the end of that debate.
“Now onto this plan of the Royal Navy’s to build up a fleet in six months’ time, what I had in mind was something far more galvanising, something to make the Japanese planners lay all night in their beds, worrying about. I was recently aboard that fine ship HMS Prince of Wales, a testimony to British shipbuilding, and it struck me how one such ship, disappearing among the many islands of the South East Asia archipelagos, could cause such consternation, a fleet footed hunter, stealthily waiting to slip out and like a bird of prey, pounce on an enemy convoy. Supported by a few ships, a flying squadron, she would do much for both our morale, show the Americans we mean business, and at the same time serve notice on the Japanese”.
Anthony Eden spoke next, “The benefits of such a ship now in the Far East would be a great demonstration of our resolve and commitment, it would signal our intent very clearly to the Americans. Hiding among the islands, slipping out and savaging a convoy, would be the very thing!”
With all due respect Foreign Secretary, a small squadron like that is more likely to become prey to any number of hazards, apart from air attack, mines and submarines, we would also worry about uncharted shoals, submerged rocks, battleships need clear deep water to operate in.”
“Nevertheless, Admiral Pound”, Clement Attlee came into the argument, “What you are proposing is a six-month hiatus, and having just heard from the JIC how Japan is moving forward, we simply don’t have that time. If we are to present any deterrence, cause any hesitancy to their plans, we have to act now, and what the Prime Minister is proposing is simply that!”
“Prime Minister, may I speak sir, please? as Deputy Chief of the Naval Staff, I have spent several weeks planning this, the best we can do is a balance fleet in six months’ time, anything sooner would be unbalanced and at risk”
Churchill shifted his weight side to side, his face a mask of fury “No, no, no, we must act and send ships now!”
Vice Admiral Phillips gave a heavy sign, “With all due respect sir, that simply won’t work, you must listen to us”
“Listen to you! Listen to you!” Churchill slammed his hand down hard on the table, “Dammit, the impertinence! we will send a flying squadron, the Prince of Wales will go, and you, Tom Phillips, shall command it!”
“And, that gentlemen, is the report before us” Churchill paused, a copy of the current JIC briefing in his hand. What it said was grim, British and US intelligence had become aware that the Imperial Japanese Navy had been placed on a full war footing. Major pieces of evidence in this appraisal were the two vital coded radio messages intercepted in October, firstly a) Orders to recall the Combined Fleet two months early from its manoeuvres at sea and secondly b) orders to all Japanese consuls to concentrate on reporting all Western naval and air movements. In addition, they noted that the IJN had taken control of Japanese merchant shipping, had inducted a large number into their ranks as auxiliaries, and most shipping had been withdrawn.
He looked around the room, at his War Cabinet, and the Chiefs of Staff, all of whom waited for him to finish talking. “I’ll turn to our Chiefs of Staff to give an update on our military capabilities in the Far East, Admiral Pound, it you so please”
Pound cleared his throat, and flanked by Dill and Portal, with their deputies behind them, he began to speak. “Gentlemen, as you know our military commitments are stretched, we cannot be strong everywhere, nevertheless we have tried to provide a balanced force for the defence of the Far East. Hong Kong, as you know and agreed, has been reduced to a token garrison, sufficient to provide internal security, but incapable of holding the colony from a determined attack. And furthermore, if lost, we will lack the strength to retake the colony for the foreseeable future. We have also accepted that we lack the military strength to hold British Borneo, and here we intend to implement a policy of scorched earth, if attack, with pre-planned demolitions denying the enemy of all oil facilities.
However, it is our full intent to defend Malaya and Singapore. To these ends we have garrisoned the colony with over three divisions worth of troops, a significant and growing presence of a potent air force, along with co-operation agreements with the Dutch. Unfortunately, we still badly lack artillery of all kinds, tanks, and enough modern aircraft to equip these forces sufficient to provide a real sense of security. Some equipment is already on its way to make good these deficiencies, but more is needed. And the Fleet in Eastern waters is only strong enough to keep the sea lanes open from raiders and U-Boats. Accepting that we continue the process of steady provision of the necessary war material required, we would like to suggest two plans to you, to ensure security in the Far East.
Firstly, we would suggest a policy of pre-empting a Japanese attack, by a move into neutral Thailand, occupying the southern part up to the beginnings of the Kra Peninsula. This would allow us to deny the Japanese the southern ports of Songkhla and Pattani, and the associated airfields, forcing her to begin a campaign coming down the Kra Isthmus, supplied from all the way back in Bangkok, with the majority of her air force having to use the Indochina airfields. We estimate this could stall any Japanese advance sufficiently long enough for the Americans to come into the war and neutralise the Japanese threat.
Secondly, we propose a build-up of a Far Eastern Fleet based on Colombo. We estimate we could have a force of four R class battleships and two carriers assembled within six months, which working in conjunction with the US Fleet, look to regain control of the South China Seas.” Pound sat back, eyes on Churchill, who then spoke. “Any thoughts gentlemen? Anthony!”
“Err Hmm, if I may be so bold Prime Minister, I have a couple of points to make. Firstly, the suggestion that we violate Thai neutrality, is something that greatly concerns me. It doesn’t sit too well with us being defenders of the free world. And secondly, how will the domestic American public take to this, we’ve spoken enough in the past about the need to win them over.”
“Thank you, Foreign Secretary, any others, yes Max?”
“Gentlemen, what I know of the Americans, is they would warm to decisive action, if it’s in the interest of self-preservation and not seen as colonialism. Provided we got the news out first and presented our case, I think the world would accept our actions.”
“If it saves lives, I’m all for it” grunted Bevin, grudgingly siding with Lord Beaverbrook
“We would have to have a clear process of when the operation could be launched, when authority can be ceded over to the generals, it would be a grave disaster if we were to act on a false alarm. What if we got it wrong and the Japanese didn’t attack, were merely sabre rattling in Indo-China, American help could be gone, lend lease ceased!” Clem Attlee was fiddling with his pipe, ready for a break in the session, so he could have another smoke.
“If I may interject, we would need to act 48 hours before a Japanese landing, our forces would need the time to travel and then fortify themselves before contact with the enemy. We wouldn’t have enough time to consult with yourselves before taking a decision. But I’m confident we could interpret their intentions correctly, and Lord Gort is not a man to act in haste.”
Yes, yes, quite right, General Dill, but as both the Foreign Secretary and the Lord Privy Seal have pointed out, such a venture endangers the close relationship we are forming with America, and I do not intend to put that at risk. I believe it would be it prudent to develop plans for the option of Operation Matador, and it will be as stated, with clear guidelines as to how it may be invoked. Although I very much doubt that such a venture will be called for”. Are we all in agreement, yes?”. Churchill grunted as if marking the end of that debate.
“Now onto this plan of the Royal Navy’s to build up a fleet in six months’ time, what I had in mind was something far more galvanising, something to make the Japanese planners lay all night in their beds, worrying about. I was recently aboard that fine ship HMS Prince of Wales, a testimony to British shipbuilding, and it struck me how one such ship, disappearing among the many islands of the South East Asia archipelagos, could cause such consternation, a fleet footed hunter, stealthily waiting to slip out and like a bird of prey, pounce on an enemy convoy. Supported by a few ships, a flying squadron, she would do much for both our morale, show the Americans we mean business, and at the same time serve notice on the Japanese”.
Anthony Eden spoke next, “The benefits of such a ship now in the Far East would be a great demonstration of our resolve and commitment, it would signal our intent very clearly to the Americans. Hiding among the islands, slipping out and savaging a convoy, would be the very thing!”
With all due respect Foreign Secretary, a small squadron like that is more likely to become prey to any number of hazards, apart from air attack, mines and submarines, we would also worry about uncharted shoals, submerged rocks, battleships need clear deep water to operate in.”
“Nevertheless, Admiral Pound”, Clement Attlee came into the argument, “What you are proposing is a six-month hiatus, and having just heard from the JIC how Japan is moving forward, we simply don’t have that time. If we are to present any deterrence, cause any hesitancy to their plans, we have to act now, and what the Prime Minister is proposing is simply that!”
“Prime Minister, may I speak sir, please? as Deputy Chief of the Naval Staff, I have spent several weeks planning this, the best we can do is a balance fleet in six months’ time, anything sooner would be unbalanced and at risk”
Churchill shifted his weight side to side, his face a mask of fury “No, no, no, we must act and send ships now!”
Vice Admiral Phillips gave a heavy sign, “With all due respect sir, that simply won’t work, you must listen to us”
“Listen to you! Listen to you!” Churchill slammed his hand down hard on the table, “Dammit, the impertinence! we will send a flying squadron, the Prince of Wales will go, and you, Tom Phillips, shall command it!”
I just realised by reading the last update, combined with other articles I read during time, that the Royal Navy officers did not had a clue how Churchill thought.
Many people blame Churchill of his ''wild''idea's , but the thruth is that the Royal Navy officers didn't had any imagination of what he ment. Not even one senior Royal NAvy officer had the imagination to come even close to tChurchill. This utter lack of imagination is probably the main cause of the disasters which Churchill is blamed for. And with disasters I mean Gallipoli and OTL Prince of Wales sinking.
The top of the Royal Navy was probably rusted even before WW1, not realising that many of the victories ,small and large, the Navy could count on was made by men who truly thought out of the box and dare to take risks.
Many people blame Churchill of his ''wild''idea's , but the thruth is that the Royal Navy officers didn't had any imagination of what he ment. Not even one senior Royal NAvy officer had the imagination to come even close to tChurchill. This utter lack of imagination is probably the main cause of the disasters which Churchill is blamed for. And with disasters I mean Gallipoli and OTL Prince of Wales sinking.
The top of the Royal Navy was probably rusted even before WW1, not realising that many of the victories ,small and large, the Navy could count on was made by men who truly thought out of the box and dare to take risks.
I have to disagree. The more you read on Churchill the more you see was about as amateur a strategist as you get. He was pretty much permanently brimming with energy and ideas. Some were good. Some were horrible. But if you could not quickly and completely convince him of why it was a bad idea (or better, why something else was a better idea) he would use his famous energy to push it through.
This did cause problems. Disasters even. And he does , IMO carry significant (though usually not sole) responsibility for many of them.
Brooke once wrote in his (actually illegal) diary that Churchill had no strategic vision, his plans were always hand to mouth and almost entirely opportunist. He could be brilliant, and even wise in his estimations. But he could also jump from idea to idea without much thought, or grab tightly on to a plan even without having greatly considered it and hold on to it like a dog with a bone. Sometimes this could be argued to be the right path, pursued even against the word of advisors. Not unusually this could lead to a disaster. Both are a part of Churchill’s legacy. Blaming the Navy for failing to carry them out is, IMO, not a fair conclusion.
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Aye think Allan Brooke said something like for every every 10 ideas he had 1 good one the problems was sifting it out.
Driftless
Donor
^^^^ In some sense, aren't both decisions showing the difference between political perception of how actions will be seen versus military tactical necessities? In both cases (Operation Matador deferment and sending the PoW to the East) presaging military problems in favor of political face saving? Of course, that includes the benefit of hindsight.
Churchill wasn't the only Allied leader to make an understandable, but wrongheaded political decision that proved to be a military mistake. FDR pulled a somewhat similar decision to move the heavies of the US Pacific Fleet from San Diego to Pearl Harbor in 1941, as a show of force. Admiral Richardson, commander of the Pacific Fleet vehemently objected to the move, to the point where he got sacked in favor of Adm Kimmel. Richardson had the unfortunate situation of proving the CIC catastrophically wrong, so he got sent to the woodshed. Kimmel also took the rap for the Pearl Harbor disaster. Not FDR's finest hour.
Churchill wasn't the only Allied leader to make an understandable, but wrongheaded political decision that proved to be a military mistake. FDR pulled a somewhat similar decision to move the heavies of the US Pacific Fleet from San Diego to Pearl Harbor in 1941, as a show of force. Admiral Richardson, commander of the Pacific Fleet vehemently objected to the move, to the point where he got sacked in favor of Adm Kimmel. Richardson had the unfortunate situation of proving the CIC catastrophically wrong, so he got sent to the woodshed. Kimmel also took the rap for the Pearl Harbor disaster. Not FDR's finest hour.
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Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
Oh dear Pound who has an undiagnosed brain tumour, appears to be very unskilled in dealing with Winston and has dropped the provable clanger. He has ignored the first rule of dealing with the tempestuous PM, don’t just say no, unless you have some very sound reasons why. He should have said instead, that he would assemble a team and get back to Winston within a week, as to how his request could be fulfilled. And then presented the full facts, without any off the others present, except possibly Dill, of why this course of action is unadvisable. But that on examination it would be possible to base a large squadron including POW, in Colombo within a month, while arrangements were made with the Dutch, for facilities for it to operate around the DEI. Winston is wrong, no fleet other than the entire Home Fleet, could ether dissuade the Japanese from war, or in the event of war be able to subdue the Japanese. POW on her own or even with a number of escorts, could not operate in the manner envisioned by Winston, she would need a large fleet train, which at this time didn’t exist. And in the days of aerial reconnaissance, there were very few places she could attempt to hide. Nor were there the shore facilities to support her available in the DEI, or until the Japanese the Japanese conquer Malaysia, if ever, would there be many opportunities for her to engage in substantial action. Winston's basic idea of a very powerful ship hiding among the islands of the DEI, and emerging from hiding to slash at the invading Japanese, would have been relevant pre WWI, but is totally irrelevant now. All sending POV with Phillips in command, to play hide and seek in the DEI, is going to do is get her at best badly damaged, at worst sunk with a tremendous loss of life. Hopefully saner heads can intervene and dissuade Winston from this incredibly foolish course of action.
RR.
RR.
An interesting development might have been Pound threatening to resign over Z Force but I guess that was not the done thing.