What would a "Modernized" Greco-Roman religion look like?

[Duke_of_Darkness]

I was reading about Julian the Apostate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_(emperor)) earlier and it mentioned how he tried to revive Roman Polytheism and make it more centralized and philosophically grounded in order to have it compete with Christianity. In India, there was a case where an ancient polytheistic religion (Hinduism), declined after a new faith arose there (Buddhism) only to have a major revival. If Greek mythology was revived and evolved similar to Hinduism, what would it look like by modern times?

I have a strong feeling that by the 21st Century, the various gods would be seen more as metaphorical figures than active persons; and that sacrifices would be far less common. Then again, a Europe without Christianity might just skip over the Scientific Revolution and Enlightenment movements as well. I also feel that new gods would be created over time as technology and culture advances; it just seems silly that Ares would still be using a bow or a sword when no soldier uses that anymore. Depending on what POD you choose, there won't be an Islam either.

 

[Collondi]

Impossible to predict on that time scale. However, I do like the idea of various states reforming and centralizing their specific branch of polytheism, basically transforming it into a unified state religion with a state church that brings some of the same advantages as Christianity. Like you said, this is probably what Julian must’ve had in mind. You’d have specific patron gods for each kingdom.

Philosophies like Stoicism and Neo-platonism promoted the idea that the universe and all the gods were connected and one in the same, so it’s possible the Greco-Roman gods start to more closely resemble the Hindu gods in terms of their relationship with each other and the universe

 

[Mildtryth]

it just seems silly that Ares would still be using a bow or a sword when no soldier uses that anymore.

Why not? People would understand that that's supposed to be a metaphor. We still use metaphors like that even today.

I also feel that new gods would be created over time as technology and culture advances

I'd think it would be easier for the same gods to receive new attributions. Going away from paganism but on a similar logic, Saint Christopher was already the patron saint of things related to traveling, and when cars came about, he became the patron saint of drivers, as a extension of his previous patronage. So for example, you might see Vulcan becoming the god of gunpowder in addition to his previous attributes.

 

[Lalli]

Hard to say what surviving Greco-Roman religion would look like. We speak about developing of religion through next over 1600 years. One thing is too that Germanic religion would affect to G-R religion since they would still invade and probably destroy Roman Empire and Christianity was already pretty strong on East so it would remain there pretty strong.

I have a strong feeling that by the 21st Century, the various gods would be seen more as metaphorical figures than active persons; and that sacrifices would be far less common.

Very possible. Not sure how seriously Romans even took their old gods in 4th century anymore.

Then again, a Europe without Christianity might just skip over the Scientific Revolution and Enlightenment movements as well.

I don't see why this would happen.

I also feel that new gods would be created over time as technology and culture advances;

More probable is that existing gods just get more of roles like saints in OTL.

it just seems silly that Ares would still be using a bow or a sword when no soldier uses that anymore.

I don't see why people would begin to descripe Ares for example with assault rifle only because it is more modern. They would still understand metaphors. And you don't usually see modern military technology on flags and coat of arms either or talking that these should are updated as modern weapons.

 

[Sekhmet_D]

I also feel that new gods would be created over time as technology and culture advances; it just seems silly that Ares would still be using a bow or a sword when no soldier uses that anymore.

Look at Chinese folk religion. Here and now in the year 2024, it reveres deities whose appearances and accoutrements remain entirely unchanged from what they were back in the 9th century AD.

 

[Aluma]

Why not? People would understand that that's supposed to be a metaphor. We still use metaphors like that even today.

Yeah, just look at how we still portray angels

 

[twovultures]

Why not? People would understand that that's supposed to be a metaphor. We still use metaphors like that even today.

I agree-Catholic Churches still portray the Archangel Michael using a sword or a spear, I don't see why it would be any different for a modernized polytheist religion. Although walking into a cathedral and seeing the Archangel strapped with a .45 might not be out of place in some parts of the world...

While I don't know what a modernized Greco-Roman religion would look like, on the way to modernity the revived tradition would probably need to pick up a few ideas from Christianity whose time had come. For example, monasticism, with isolated groups of devoted men (*maybe* women as well) contemplating the Neoplatonic One and turning away from the 'fallen' world. These monastics would be seen by others as exemplars of a spiritual life, worthy of support, and could create centers of learning that allow

Another is the practice of personal devotion to a deity becoming a widespread practice. Where traditional Greco-Roman religion had people come to a temple on a specific day to offer a specific sacrifice to placate a god, and mystery cults had them try to join exclusivist secret societies to find salvation, personal devotion opens up a spiritual life to the common person regardless of gender and class, and gets them invested in the polytheist system. The equivalent in Hinduism would be the Bhakti movement.

 

[AkhenatenOrRamses]

I was reading about Julian the Apostate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_(emperor)) earlier and it mentioned how he tried to revive Roman Polytheism and make it more centralized and philosophically grounded in order to have it compete with Christianity. In India, there was a case where an ancient polytheistic religion (Hinduism), declined after a new faith arose there (Buddhism) only to have a major revival. If Greek mythology was revived and evolved similar to Hinduism, what would it look like by modern times?

I have a strong feeling that by the 21st Century, the various gods would be seen more as metaphorical figures than active persons; and that sacrifices would be far less common. Then again, a Europe without Christianity might just skip over the Scientific Revolution and Enlightenment movements as well. I also feel that new gods would be created over time as technology and culture advances; it just seems silly that Ares would still be using a bow or a sword when no soldier uses that anymore. Depending on what POD you choose, there won't be an Islam either.

As other members said, 1,500 years or so could allow for a near infinite number of directions for a surviving Greco-Roman religion to take.

My guess, however, is that it'd be organized at some point by authority figures (surviving Roman Emperor? Invading barbarian chieftain who converts for political reasons?) on the scale of the OTL Catholic Church to enforce theology/doctrine and keep the masses homogenous. That's one of the things OTL's paganism of various flavors failed at - it made the structure of Christianity easier to convert them imo.

 

[Lalli]

My guess, however, is that it'd be organized at some point by authority figures (surviving Roman Emperor? Invading barbarian chieftain who converts for political reasons?) on the scale of the OTL Catholic Church to enforce theology/doctrine and keep the masses homogenous. That's one of the things OTL's paganism of various flavors failed at - it made the structure of Christianity easier to convert them imo.

That would be intresting since at least with my knowledge any polytheist religion hadn't been as doctrined as Abrahamic religions. But it would make sense since emperor Julian would need way to compent with Christianity. And strong dogmas would help that.

And Caesar could be such religious leader. Or then earthly and divine power are divided and caesar is for secular things and Pontifex Maximus would be religious leader.

 

[AkhenatenOrRamses]

And Caesar could be such religious leader. Or then earthly and divine power are divided and caesar is for secular things and Pontifex Maximus would be religious leader.

That's more or less the direction the OTL Byzantine Emperors had in practice. They had the Patriarch in Constantinople under them, not the opposite way around as it often happed with the Pope vs secular rulers such as the HRE.

 

[Mildtryth]

That would be intresting since at least with my knowledge any polytheist religion hadn't been as doctrined as Abrahamic religions. But it would make sense since emperor Julian would need way to compent with Christianity. And strong dogmas would help that.

And Caesar could be such religious leader. Or then earthly and divine power are divided and caesar is for secular things and Pontifex Maximus would be religious leader.

Except that the emperors were the pontifices too. I see no reason for that to change, especially considering that Julian and his putative successors, being in charge of these reforms, wouldn't want a independent pagan church that could contest the state's power, the way the Christian Church could OTL. You'd probably end up with a situation similar to the Caliph in Islam.

 

[Fatt Shea]

While I don't know what a modernized Greco-Roman religion would look like, on the way to modernity the revived tradition would probably need to pick up a few ideas from Christianity whose time had come. For example, monasticism, with isolated groups of devoted men (*maybe* women as well) contemplating the Neoplatonic One and turning away from the 'fallen' world. These monastics would be seen by others as exemplars of a spiritual life, worthy of support, and could create centers of learning that allow

I believe people like that already did exist and could have inspired Christian monastacism though I don't think they had the same organisation

 

[Collondi]

Look at Chinese folk religion. Here and now in the year 2024, it reveres deities whose appearances and accoutrements remain entirely unchanged from what they were back in the 9th century AD.

This is true, though OTOH China is relatively isolated from foreign influence compared to Europe, with exceptions like Buddhism. During the Roman Empire’s lifespan and before we saw several gods be imported, especially from the east. I think the Silk Road would continue to transport eastern religions and deities into Europe.

If we look at how it evolved OTL, IIRC Poseidon used to be the primary god, and had associations with the underworld, before taking a backseat to Zeus. Sometimes gods from mystery cults become mainstream, like Dionysus or Sol Invictus. The associations between gods and their status changed all the time, even if some aspects may stay around for millennia.

Also, as soon as Rome falls there won’t be a “greco-Roman pantheon” anymore. Much like how Latin evolved, Spain, Italy, Greece etc. would have distinct pantheons branching from similar origins.

 

[Sekhmet_D]

This is true, though OTOH China is relatively isolated from foreign influence compared to Europe, with exceptions like Buddhism.

The principal adherents of Chinese folk religion today are the Chinese disapora, not people in the PRC - people who live in places like South East Asia, Taiwan and the like. Taiwan and Singapore are hardly isolated from Western influence, and yet the ancient Chinese deities revered in both these locales have seen virtually no modernisation, no present day spin on their mythos, appearances, et cetera.

 

[Collondi]

The principal adherents of Chinese folk religion today are the Chinese disapora, not people in the PRC - people who live in places like South East Asia, Taiwan and the like. Taiwan and Singapore are hardly isolated from Western influence, and yet the ancient Chinese deities revered in both these locales have seen virtually no modernisation, no present day spin on their mythos, appearances, et cetera.

I never argued that the folk religion would be modernized in any way, I agree with you there. I don’t know much about Chinese folk religion but I do know that Greco-Roman religion changed significantly in the millennia of its own existence, and I don’t see why it wouldn’t continue to.

 

[Sekhmet_D]

I never argued that the folk religion would be modernized in any way, I agree with you there. I don’t know much about Chinese folk religion but I do know that Greco-Roman religion changed significantly in the millennia of its own existence, and I don’t see why it wouldn’t continue to.

I didn't think you were. The point I'm trying to make is that whatever changes Greco Roman religion undergoes if it lasts into the modern day, won't necessarily include such drastic modernisation as, say, Poseidon sporting sunglasses and a surfboard.

 

[Ulahlica-Ulahlica]

For example, monasticism, with isolated groups of devoted men (*maybe* women as well) contemplating the Neoplatonic One and turning away from the 'fallen' world

The Church did not invent this. They borrowed this from the Greek philosophy of Epicureanism, which advocated communal living with one's friends as part of a path to a happy life. Some of the earliest monasteries were converted Epicurean communes.

 

[Stellar_Lights]

I can think of a few possibilities, in a World where the Abrahamic religions are limited to Judaism.

Let's first come to what Christianity in effect, is. It is a hybrid between Second Temple Judaism and the Graeco-Roman Paganism, along with some Iranian elements from Zoroastrianism, Manicheanism, with likely scatterings of local Phoenician theologies. This mix was intelligently created likely by a Hellenized or a Mixed Jewish community in Anatolia and Levant that existed by then, but later chosen by Rome's Emperors as an effective tool. So, in effect, it's actually sort of Graeco-Roman Paganism which some Jews and Muslims see it as. This system doesn't need to have the Graeco-Roman gods. For example, Hinduism rarely worships the gods of the Indo-Aryan Paganism, now.

A Confucian like system with could emerge with balanced warrior ethic and community building, topped with a Long-Term Goal like in Christianity. This is plausible and would make things look the Chinese cultures. What could be the gods would be an open question.

A Christianity itself could emerge but without Jesus and the Old Hebrew Prophets/books/Bible. This could create a tribal structure for the empire and provide a goal for the people (which was what Christianity was intended to do, anyway), and will most likely look like Modern Christianity, but be called a "Romanic religion", and again have mixes from Iranian and other cultures

Let me work on a few more.

 

[DJ03]

It is a hybrid between Second Temple Judaism and the Graeco-Roman Paganism, along with some Iranian elements from Zoroastrianism, Manicheanism, with likely scatterings of local Phoenician theologies. This mix was intelligently created likely by a Hellenized or a Mixed Jewish community in Anatolia and Levant that existed

what are the proofs of this? in particular when and where are the scatterings of local phoenician theologies coming from? are they coming through the jewish roots or are they a later addition?

also i would exclude the manicheans, as they seem to have described themselves in various instances (1) as christians and other christians as semichristianos (half-christians) at least once (2)

1. both Augustine and Evodius in their responses to Mani's "fundamental epistle" quote him claiming to be "apostle of jesus christ through the providence of the father".
the acts of Archelaus report of Mani calling himself "a disciple of christ" and "an apostle of jesus".
the Living Gospel, a manichean text from the iii century confirms this "i, Mani, apostle of jesus christ, through the will of god, father of truth".
manichean texts found in Kellis also have them refer to themselves as "the holy church" and Samuel Lieu, discussing said texts, goes to say that manicheans "presented themselves as the church of the paraclete and as such in Dakhla oasis they were the christians".

2. Augustine in Contra Frustum quotes him referring to other christians in this way

edit: all quotes are my own re-translations from the italian version Nongbri's Before Religion, pp. 99-100